From The Guardian Unlimited:
Acting on tips about preachers who ride in Rolls Royces and have purportedly paid $30,000 for a conference table, the top Republican on the Senate Finance Committee said Tuesday he’s investigating the finances of six well-known TV ministers.
[Sen. Chuck Grassley of Iowa] sent letters to the half-dozen Christian media ministries earlier this week requesting answers by Dec. 6 about their expenses, executive compensation and amenities, including use of fancy cars and private jets.
In a statement, Grassley said he was acting on complaints from the public and news coverage of the organizations.
…snip…
Most of those under investigation preach a variation of the “prosperity gospel,” the teaching that God will shower faithful followers with material riches.
Grassley’s letters went to:
– Kenneth and Gloria Copeland of Kenneth Copeland Ministries of Newark, Texas, a $20 million organization and prosperity gospel pioneer. Questions were raised about the transfer of church assets to a for-profit company, Security Patrol Inc., a $1 million loan from Gloria Copeland to the group, and a “personal gift” of more than $2 million given to Kenneth Copeland to mark the ministry’s 40th anniversary.
…snip…
– Creflo and Taffi Dollar of World Changers Church International and Creflo Dollar Ministries of College Park, Ga. Grassley’s letter asks for records on private planes, board makeup, compensation and donations and “love offerings” to visiting ministers.
…snip…
– Benny Hinn of World Healing Center Church Inc. and Benny Hinn Ministries of Grapevine, Texas, is asked about use of a private jet, a home in Dana Point, Calif. and “layover trips” while traveling on ministry business.
…snip…
– Bishop Eddie Long of New Birth Missionary Baptist Church and Bishop Eddie Long Ministries of Lithonia, Ga., was questioned about his salary, a $1.4 million real estate transaction and whether he, and not the board, holds sole authority over the organization.
…snip…
– Joyce and David Meyer of Joyce Meyer Ministries of Fenton, Mo., who were quizzed about receiving donations of money and jewelry and the handling of cash from overseas crusades. They also were asked about expenditures at ministry headquarters, including a $30,000 conference table and a $23,000 “commode with marble top.”
…snip…
– Randy and Paula White of the multiracial Without Walls International Church and Paula White Ministries of Tampa, Fla. are asked about home purchases in San Antonio, Texas, Malibu, Calif., and New York, credit card charges for clothing and cosmetic surgery and the reported purchase of a Bentley convertible as a gift for Bishop T.D. Jakes, a prominent Texas preacher and televangelist.
…snip…
Hinn, Kenneth Copeland and Creflo Dollar all sit on the board of regents for Oral Roberts University, which is mired in a financial scandal of its own.
The Senate Finance Committee has chided secular nonprofits for governance and compensation problems in the past, but this level of scrutiny for what are basically “non-pulpit churches” is unprecedented, said Ken Behr, president of the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability.
Because the groups have tax status as churches, they are not required to file tax forms open to public inspection.
Just a side note–Creflo and Taffi? People are giving their money to and entrusting their salvation to people named Creflo and Taffi? Seriously, Creflo and Taffi? And their last name is Dollar?
HYSTERICAL RAISINS 
Am I shocked? No!
neither am i, charles. you can bet your bottom creflo and taffi dollar on that! 😆
‘Most of those under investigation preach a variation of the “prosperity gospel,” the teaching that God will shower faithful followers with material riches.’
Ah… I see, nonnie. This must be one of the basic tenets of Bushism. However, Bushalics only pretending to be so-called followers of God, have surpassed “showers of riches” with “downpours of loot.”
A just and wrathful God might be inclined to smite them with lightening and then allow them to drown slowly in in their self-created cesspools of blood and booty.
Amen.
the ironic thing is that all that wealth sometimes leads to a lot of unhappiness. eventually, their greed will kick them in their asses.
Faith based social programs, faith based security companies, faith based prisons, I hope that they are not just throwing the flashy ones under the bus. It is well past time to take a good hard look at ALL these tax free businesses. Bush’s policy, of giving federal money to some of these prey’en folks, has pissed me off for a long time.
fotc,
i tried to answer this hours ago, but it appears that wordpress has a boo-boo.
i love the way you put things. 😆 i think these preyin’ folks care only for themselves, not the prayin’ folks, who are nothing more than prey for these predators.
Is it wrong to believe in the word of God? Is it wrong to believe that everything that God has told us? If salvation is true then why is it that everything elese that Jesus promised challenged? Does it make everyone feel better if they can justify the misery in their own lives by attacking those that have accepted the words of Jesus as having meaning today as it did years ago? Sen Grassley is trying to save his job and thus attacking the work of God makes him safe from those that would like to live in misery and misfortune. My prayers are for those that have failed to reach out to God and accept his promise for life eternal and more abundant.
bob, you can believe whatever you want. keep giving money to these lying assholes who steal from gullible people, not to do good works, but to feather their own already gilded nests. you do whatever you want with your money, but don’t ask other people to chip in their tax dollars to build road to their personal ATMs…i mean churches. let them pay their own way. there is no reason whatsoever for any of their organizations to be tax-exempt.
Amen Bob. I agree with you. I do not understand the hostility towards these preachers. If they are indeed stealing money and misusing the funds. Tnhey have a bigger price to pay. God never said believe this part of my Word. But not the rest. If you do believe in His gift of salvation. Then why would you not believe the rest of his Word. On more than one occassio in His Word, God warns us not to judge, lest we will be judged. His Word also warns all of us about speaking against God’s annointed. I am not prepared to pass judgement on any of these men and women of God. And I would like to remind every believer, that we should pray for them. Not judge them.
tell you what, rick. they can give me a few million dollars, and i will pray for them until the cows come home. it’s only fair, isn’t it? after all, they take money from poor people who think they are getting prayers in exchange. fair is fair!
Here is another perspective you may want to consider. It is a blog entitled “Kenneth Copeland’s Jet” I’m not so sure that Senator Grassley has a right to do this, regardless of what you think about Copeland, this could open some doors we may not want to open. http://dougwead.wordpress.com/2008/04/12/kenneth-copelands-jet/
thank you for the link, buzzboy443, but i don’t get your point. others have done the same thing and gotten away with it, so grassley has no business looking into complaints made by those he was elected to represent? the government has no business checking to see if a religious organization is misusing their tax exempt status? as far as i am concerned, as long as a religious organization has tax-exempt status, every record of those tax-free dollars that they collect and spend should be fully public, available to the government and watchdog organizations. i am afraid that, if you are looking for a sympathetic ear, you will not find one here. however, i thank you for comment, and i respect your point of view. i just don’t share it.
I’ve been reading some of the letters posted for some of these being investigated, the senator letter included, and he is asking for donor and speaker lists. The financial part, yes – account for that, especially with so much personal wealth, but the donor lists do raise some concerns.
What have the donors got to do with it? If they are duped, they’ll find out soon enough. Grassley has publicized a lot he has gotten and said the public has a right to know. Finances, yes. Donor names and addresses – everybody needs to know that? Huh? That would seem to double penalize people if these are found out to be bogus ministers. I mean, how embarrassing. They get ripped off and then records kept or published that they were.
That’s the part that some of them are holding out on. Personally, I think they are right to do so. The ones that are flinging all that information to the wind seem to be kind of traitorous to their givers. People give with an expectation of privacy. And even if not published, they are in the records as being tied to that minister. Hmmm Not so good.
so all money launderers have to do is declare themselves religious organizations? sorry, but if you are asking for a favor from the government–and i believe that is what tax exemption is, a favor, then you should have to agree that there will be complete oversight. if that is too much to ask, then pay taxes.
Nonnieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee 🙂 at last someone walking around without their heads so far up their backsides:D of Cause Kenny and his lil woman Gloriiiiaaaaaaaa are crooks and are living the Heavenly life right here right now on this earth;)
do any of you actually arguing against this government inquiry actually stop and THINK using the gray matter God gave you about what is going on here??? forget the division between church and state … it aint about that… its about THE TRUTH??? and does it not say in Gods own Book(AKA THE BIBLE) that we should surrender unto caesar what is caesars?
Well if good old Julius was here right now im sure hed be mighty Pissed at Kenny Hoarding all his(Caesars) wealth and most likely have him hung drawn and quartered… but i digress :S… anyhoo the point is Nonnie has it nailed… Kenny and old Glamorous Gloria have been conning the sheeple for so long it seems natural to them… but deep in their (*cough*) souls im sure Ken and Gloria are rolling around in bed tossing and turning on their mink sheet sets 😦 after all they ARE “Ministers” of our lord?????????
http://www.dallasobserver.com/2006-08-03/news/the-cult-of-ole/
the accuser doesn’t stand so tall himself … overlooked by media because he feeds them dirt, some of which has been disproven. Read this.
http://www.southernappeal.org/index.php/archives/2613
About 25 very non-related to those investigated have that concern that keeps echoing – where is this going.
There are music and book royalties you know, personal investments. My pastor makes more than his low church salary through rentals on some real estate he personally owned. I think he should. He is a 24/7 pastor and has a personal right to raise his family’s standard. However, he is not bizarre.
The outcome will be interesting on this. It is hard to believe that the extent of the extravagant stuff they have came honestly, but looking at some of the disclosures to the questions they have posted reveals private sources. If that’s lying, the senator will find out. If not, I do think it shows poor judgment and a bad appearance. There is just a level where it gets gaudy and callous seeming, I will certainly agree.
But the extreme presumption of mass scale fleecing doesn’t ring true either. I see a lot of jumping to conclusions out there, depicting the most vulnerable being ignorantly duped, their last ray of hope, the most pitiful being victimized. Seeing the congregations of these, they have large numbers of well off followers with means and ability to discern. It will be interesting to see how it comes out.
hello joh 😀
i find it very hard to understand why this silly little blog of mine has suddenly commanded so much attention on this subject, especially on posts that are months old. what i find interesting is that most of the commenters who are not very happy about what i have to say are from colorado. it makes me wonder if there are little hit squads dedicated to finding anything negative about the pastors and refuting it. i am not accusing anyone of anything. i just find it interesting.
i wonder why these same people are not here wringing their hands over the investigation of al sharpton. he calls himself reverend, so why aren’t they up in arms about his right to privacy? it seems it only matters when it is their brand of religion that is being questioned.
perry,
i am sorry, but i am not getting your point. if you don’t like the investigation, then one should attack the investigator? i am no fan of senator grassley, but i don’t believe that he is anti-religion. what is wrong with investigating something based on press reports? the press does investigations, so what is wrong in relying on what they say in to uncover wrong-doing? even if the press hadn’t said a thing about the subject, grassley said that he had gotten complaints from his constituents. it is his job to look into these matters when those who elected him have complaints.
why is it an “extreme” presumption that there was mass scale fleecing going on? wasn’t that the case with jim bakker and a lot of other televangelists? ever heard of pyramid schemes? they are rampant, and they don’t work unless a lot of people are being fooled. how about the idiot on tv who sells books about cures for just about any disease you can imagine–kevin trudeau? he’s been convicted of fraud and larceny, and he’s still on tv selling his crap. people buy into this nonsense, probably because they want to believe they can be cured of whatever ails them. i think that can be described as mass scale fleecing, and a lot of others will follow in his footsteps, simply because they know that people will fall for it, and they will get rich as a result.
Perry ive read both those reports you put up in your post previously and to be quite honest YES there are going to be Pro,s and Cons to every argument … but its simply a matter of REALITY???? are people so blinded by their faith that they ignore the obvious?? its like being slapped around the head with a giant tuna???Ken and his “good” lady have built themselves an empire using Tax free $$$ to live a life of BLING… as people often say… oh so you expect Christians to be poor and humble???..no of cause not…..anyone regardless of religious denomination has a right within our free democratic countries to live within reasonably comfortable means…. but come on guys??? a 18thousand ft, square parsonage?? a fleet of airplanes including a $20 million Jet??
Clothing that would put a exclusive fashion designer to shame?? its about $$$$$$$ not about Jesus… yea sure they throw in the odd passage or 2 about Jesus but then they mingle it with the prosperity message… infact Kenneth,s Doctrines are kind of a combo of Morman/Christian/whatever he chooses to throw in at the time….. its very confusing …. at 72 years of age one might consider excusing Kenneth for his strange outbursts…as we all know the human brain does get a little fuzzy as we grow older.
But one thing i shall finish this on is simply this….. When in all the years Kenneth and Gloria have been on your TV screens have you ever seen the most significant Sign of Christianity?? THE CROSS.
In all of the Copelands years on our screens i have NEVER seen a cross anywhere in sight??
What about the second point – the group who is raising the privacy issue with the senator? They are not the prosperity gospel. There is a real issue here. Freedoms lost are difficult to regain. Congress has been very into miscellaneous things lately, hauling in sports figures, etc. Hey, they have enough on their plate that needs their attention. History has shown abuse of power in the government many times, only corrected when people spoke up and stood up. One is still innocent until proven guilty in the good old USA. It’s the tactics being used. Government can get out of line in the way they go after people/groups and that needs correction. History (and recent history) shows this has happened off and on and was only corrected when people spoke up. You don’t have to roll over and play dead and let your privacy go to the wind, even if you are a hated religious group. All Americans have rights. If they won’t stand for them, then they deserve to lose them.
As to the press, they are notoriously anti-religion. As pointed out in the Anthony thing, the piece Diane Sawyer did based on stuff from him, later embarrassed her because his “proof” was proven false. In that case, this Tilton, his following left him, because there were other things. But, why should Anthony get a free pass for the clear violations and questionable practices because the press likes his dirt? That shows where the media are coming from. It’s a double standard.
I just think there is something different going on here, something we all should care about. It is my hope that needed corrections will take place in these investigated entities, I’ll call them, at least in judgment and discretion, at most in cleaning up whatever really needs to be cleaned up. I am not defending them. Their actions are on them. But withholding speaker and donor lists and resisting the back door, strong arm methods begin employed here does not indicate culpability. We in America still have the right of redress in our own government. I think this committee is being the heavy in this in a way they should not be allowed. Certainly, the ministers should not get away with anything. The government should not get away with anything either – specifically, a very important freedom. Churches and church leaders are not second-class citizens.
They are being tried in the media by the media before the information has been assessed and the senator started it out that way. There’s just something wrong with that. I’m through here. Thanks for any openness. Bye.
perry,
i did address the point about privacy. what guarantee do we have that these pastors are not laundering money if we cannot see the list of their donors? would you object if congress agreed to keep the list confidential if no wrong-doing was found? i would think that most big donors would list their donations as deductions on their tax returns, so the privacy argument goes out the window. if people are making huge donations and not claiming them as deductions, i think you would have to wonder why not and suspect that there is something other than generosity going on.
if you are really worried about privacy rights, i suggest you wring your hands more over citizens who are having their phone calls and internet activity monitored by the government without any warrants. that affects all of us, and not a handful of so-called preachers who live like kings and can afford the best of lawyers.
ohhhh …. The IRS has to keep donations private, things on tax returns. Tax returns are not public documents. They are bound by law or government regulation to keep confidential what they have.
The senator on the other hand has said that he is going to publish what he gets. Yes, it would be very different if he kept it private. That’s the point. He has stated up front he intends to do the opposite. He should conduct this between the groups and the finance committee and process it out and then proceed with appropriate measures and then announce the conclusions. If he really has stuff on these groups, why doesn’t he to ahead and USE it, rather than leaking out what he is being given to the press as it goes along to put pressure on these groups. He cheapens his office by the way he is conducting this. It appears he wishes to dry up their donor base and shut them down that way, before the information has even been processed. And they have given him financial information. Most of these have annual audits by accounting firms and a lot of them post them on their websites as public information.
As for Joh’s comments, I have checked websites of most, their messages they have there, going back years, looked over their books and tapes and caught some of the broadcasts, spot checking here and there for myself. Several in particular have substantial topics on relationships, family, Christian living that reflect a depth into the word and a deeper walk than has been represented. I’ve listened to enough to see that. I expected to find 95+% on prosperity, etc., but that really didn’t prove to be the case. As for having a cross on the set when they broadcast, I don’t consider a religious symbol the representation of what is in a heart. The words reflect the heart and I did not find the rank shallowness you describe.
I think the cream will come to the top. The ones with genuine ministry will come out alright and their flocks will hold together. They will learn from this and make adjustments if they are true disciples. Everyone needs adjustments. Their obvious flaw seems to be reckoning higher standards of living equated as a mark of being blessed of God. But some of the ones I listened to obviously run deeper than that and teach a broader counsel of God than prosperity. Having wealth does not mean you bilked it. I know pastors with investments in real estate, rentals, etc. that supplement their living, giving their families a better standard of living. That’s not wrong. But, they are not flamboyant with it. A man of God who is really a man of God should be blessed, but, yes, this overboard stuff needs to be checked out, but checked out, not circused before the process has run its course.
lol Nonnie i kinda like the idea of “big Brother” watching over my every internet move :D… oh dear id better clean my hardrive incase they find the midget porn websites :|……… lol
perry,
i still don’t understand the unwillingness for donations to tax-exempts to be made public. campaign contributions are public. however, if that is your only objection, why not ask your senators to consider keeping the information confidential instead of asking that the entire investigation be scrapped? if he finds wrongdoing, then grassley can ask individual donors if they mind if their names are made public.
as for the cream rising to the top, if only that were true. if you have enough money, you can make people believe that sour milk is cream. it is no longer a matter of quality, just what you can make the people believe.
joh,
you can clean your hard drive all you want. if the ashcroft/gonzo/mukasey justice department wants something on there, they’ll put it on there.
lmao Nonnie yea true …. but at least if their gonna do that they might as well put something worth looking at on it??:D
Oh by the way… does anyone else here find Kenneth Copeland kinda scary looking?? and has anyone Noticed that Kenneths Daughter Kelly looks just like Kenneth in Drag????… hmmmmmmmm??
Oh and another thiing ( mind blank) ive realised why Kenneth has to make so much $$$$$$ its all Glamorous Glorias fault…she must be extremely high maintenance what with constant Botox injections and cosmetic surgery costs these days??? Poor old Ken has to work 2 jobs just to pay the costs:(
(hes moonlighting at McDonalds as a cook) 😉 true ive seen him 😀 or was that Elvis?????
been by here a few times and always wondered what made that awful smell. so stopped in to find out, seeing the garbage on it right away, holding my nose while I scanned, thinking: why don’t they take out the trash. then I saw why: because the trash is running it
this site should be called “fools’ paradise”
gee thanks, brian and non-joh!! 😀
please stop by anytime! but why tell both of you that, when you are the same person using the same email address? 😆 in fact, everyone who has come here to say something negative seems to have someone else posting from their computer, as i get the same address for different names. wonder how that happened!
if you don’t like what you see here, you are under no obligation whatsoever to come here. i don’t think it’s very christian of you to come over just to call me names. but don’t worry, i take it from whence it comes, and it bothers me not at all. i find you all very entertaining. 😀
Oooooohhh i have a fan 😀
yeah, and i am jealous, joh! not one person made their name non-nonnie!
Geez, I didn’t realize I had to scan back through months of dead threads to get to all this fun conversation! I’ve been missing out, I can see that.
Where to start? And is it even worth the trouble, seeing as how it’s all FREEPERS?!!! You know things are going badly in the land of the wingnuts when they start showing up in months-old dead threads of little blogs like this.
Bob, I suggest you go do some heavy reading of your Bible before spouting off about believing the word of God. Men who accumulate riches on earth don’t seem to be on God’s A-list when it comes to entering the pearly gates. A true man of God will receive his reward in heaven, not on this earth.
Rick H., perhaps the hostility towards these preachers comes from the fact that while they’re busy flying around on their expensive jets lining their pockets for their own pleasure, there are people starving in this country, homeless and penniless. God won’t bless these preachers for their selfishness and greed. Neither should the government.
buzzboy443 and 1allison, open the doors and let the light in. If they’ve done nothing wrong, they’ve got nothing to hide, right? At least that’s what BushCo says about spying on our phone conversations, email exchanges, bank and medical records, etc. What’s good for the impoverished goose is good for the greedy gander.
Perry, you’re either a tool or an idiot, or both.
brain and non-joh, the only thing that smells around here is the likes of you two. Now take your stench and your insults and leave us “fools” be. Or better yet, go f^ck yourselves. I mean that in the kindest, most christian way.
Begone, Freepers!
😆 i love a good gotta rant!
Well I can’t let you and Joh have all the fun, nons…. 😉
maybe someone will sign on as non-gotta. i sort of like that. persona non-gotta. 😆
But isnt a non gotta someone who has nothing??:( i mean the poor guy has to change his name twice to get some attention… the least we can do as good citizens is give him some credit for making this a funny convo??:)
this is for you Nonnie seeing as its your blog n all 🙂
2Ch 6:23 Then hear thou from heaven, and do, and judge thy servants, by requiting the wicked, by recompensing his way upon his own head; and by justifying the righteous, by giving him according to his righteousness.
Dear so-called “Christian” trolls,
FU and the pompous asses you rode in on! nonnie has more goodness in her pinkie finger than all of you and your multiple personalties put together. You are an embarrassment to real people of faith.
Oh, and that stench you smell? It’s coming from that sh*t you’re peddling and wallowing in…
But, I mean that in the nicest way, of course. 🙂
Sincerely,
One who knows the true concepts of God and Christ far better than you do
ROTFLMAO!! persona non-gotta! I love it!
nightowl, well said my dear. Well said…..
gotta and nons,
I was so mad at those jerks that I forgot to compliment you, gotta, on your ESF (ever so fine) rant and you,nonnie, on your “persona non-gotta!”
Me…
isn’t this turning into the funnest thread evah? 😆 i need to get a piece of paper so i can write down all the names i have been called. the funniest thing is that these people with their self-righteous perceived piousness does not allow them to really get down and dirty and roll in the mud. they don’t know how to fight. the fight has been taken right out of them, because they surrendered their ability to actually think for themselves. all they are left is the ability to spout bible verses.
thanks, joh (aka non-nonnie 🙂 ), now i don’t feel left out. of course, persona non-gotta has nothing, and our little visitors, having ceded their free thought, have exactly that.
gotta, told you there was all kinds of entertainment over here! 😀
nightowl! so glad to see you over here, too. arguing with these religiousbots is kinda pointless, but it is a good way to vent a bit and get rid of some tension.
Yea, well, that’s what Raisinets do, right? Watch each other’s backs?
RAISIN POWER!
raisin power!! 😀
just don’t leave us on the radiator, because the chocolate will melt! 😉
My Chocolate went mouldy from being kept in the dark too long :(… oh and ur very very welcome Nonnie 😀
i am very glad you finally saw the light, joh! 😀
Oh. OK. No radiators. Check. 🙂
It IS fun, nons. The bible spouters are my favorite, of course. Nothing but good, clean fun there for me, I can play biblical madlibs all day long.
nightowl, you’re absolutely right, we raisinettes stick together (just another reason to keep us in a cool, dry place). Hell hath no fury like a handful of righteously indignant raisinettes.
Joh, I don’t know where the hell you came from, but it’s always fun to have another disreputable joker to hang out with. Welcome aboard!
biblical madlibs!! 😆 😆 😆
Thanks Got 😀
welcome back, joh! 😀 i hope you realize this makes you one of the raisinette family! 😉
Oh Thanks Nonnie i got lost in cyberspace somewhere and only just(a month later) found my way back 😛
Anyhoo… back on the topic….it sees the goings on with Kennyboy and Glorious Gloria have taken a twist… they have recruited Doug Wead( a GW Bush ex staffer) to save them from the tyranny of this nasty Demonic Senator Grassley(as Kenny puts it its the Devil trying to bring him down)but see ive worked it all out guys:) its not the devil its the Botox… Dang that stuff just isnt cheap you know and going on what 72 year old Kenny looks like and his 67 year old wife Glamorous Gloria looks like they MUST be keeping the Botox suppliers in business all by themselves.. so yea i say Away with you Bad nasty evil senator leave these poor(ooops rich) old folk alone to enjoy their Botox in peace 😉
hiya joh!!! 😀
welcome back once again! don’t worry, if you stray, the raisinettes will still be here, and we’ll leave a light on for you.
thanks for the update on the kenglo sitch (do you like that–kenglo? i just made it up! 😆 )
and now, i am off to buy some stock in botox! 🙂
don’t be afraid to visit the other diaries here, joh. if you disagree, then you are encouraged to say so. disagreement is fine when it is respectful.